Samsara
The Reel Staff
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Posted: Jun 12th, 2005 at 12:41 pm
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Hi!
I am surprised that no one posted about this before now, but anyway.
Here it is. The penultimate Harry Potter book. J.K.Rowlingis going to be out of work, soon, but she doesn't care, she's got her millions.
[spoiler]Now, not a lot is known about it other than the fact that it is called Harry Potter and the Halfblood Prince. But Rowling did say that an improtant character will die.....again. She really needs some inspiration, don't you think? It's not that important characters are always dying, but that she's always got the whole "everyone start betting!" thing going. Anyway, it is likely that it is Dumbledor. She has ran out of LoTR to steal, so I think he'll go out with a good old "There....is...another......Potter" [/spoiler]
Happy debating the sixth Potter book and DON'T FORGET SPOILER TAGS.
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Posted: Jun 12th, 2005 at 01:33 pm
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I really gotta jump in here even though I've never picked up a HP book.
Alot of people say that Rowling steals from LOTR but I see it as though she stole more from Star Wars then LOTR.
And my reasons come from (Star Wars and Harry Potter Spoilers at the link) Here and they state:
[spoiler]
1. Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter
LUKE SKYWALKER: Doesn't know his parents, raised by aunt and uncle who never tell him who he really is. Is consummate hero, battling the Dark Side regardless of the consequences and often confronting Darth Vader face to face to aid the rebel forces in their fight against the Empire. In Luke's battle with Vader, his hand is sliced off, leaving him with a mechanical hand, very much like Vader who is part human, part machine.
HARRY POTTER: Doesn't know his parents, raised by aunt and uncle who never tell him about who he really is. Heroic Harry will jump head first regardless of the consequences and go head to head with Lord Voldemort to save the wizarding world and his friends from danger. Voldemort's first attempt to kill Harry when he was a baby left Harry with a lighting-bolt scar on his forehead and a few of Voldemort's powers.
2. Han Solo and Ron Weasley
HAN SOLO: Wisecracking, reluctant hero who fights along with Luke and Leia to save the galaxy from the Empire's clutches. Han Solo is masterful behind the controls of the Millennium Falcon, and with it he gets the threesome out of a lot of jams. Has the hots for Princess Leia.
RON WEASLEY: Wisecracking best friend who fights alongside Harry and Hermione to save the wizarding world from the possible return to power of Lord Voldemort. He is masterful at wizard chess and said skill gets the threesome out of a jam. Has hots for Hermione, but is too young to realize it.
3. Princess Leia and Hermione Granger
PRINCESS LEIA: Highly educated young woman who helped save the galaxy from the Empire's control. Always has a cool head and often gets Luke and Han Solo out of danger with the many skills she acquired at some of the best galactic learning institutions. Ends up falling in love with Han Solo even though she originally thought he was a jerk.
HERMIONE GRANGER: Extremely smart young girl who knows every charm, every potion and every historical footnote in wizarding history. Her skills and logical nature have gotten Harry and Ron out of more tight spots than you can shake a wand at. Hermione will almost certainly grow up to marry Ron, even though currently she thinks he's just a stupid boy.
4. Darth Vader and Lord Voldemort
DARTH VADER: Born Anakin Skywalker, the young boy was to become a great Jedi Knight. He succumbed to the Dark Side and underwent a transformation to eventually become Darth Vader, master of the Dark Side of the Force. In the original "Star Wars" movie, you find that mortal enemy is the benevolent Obi Wan "Ben" Kenobi, once his teacher.
LORD VOLDEMORT: Born Tom Riddle, the young boy was considered to be the best student at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry and had the potential to be the greatest wizard of all time. His thirst for power made him succumb to the Dark Side to become the evil Lord Voldemort. The only wizard Voldemort fears is the benevolent Albus Dumbledore, once his teacher.
5. Obi Wan Kenobi and Albus Dumbledore
OBI WAN KENOBI: One of the most accomplished of the Jedi Knights, Obi Wan was entrusted to take over the tutelage of Anakin Skywalker. He always appears at the appropriate times to act as a spiritual guide in Luke's quest.
ALBUS DUMBLEDORE: Headmaster of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry who, as a teacher, taught Tom Riddle. He always appears at the appropriate times to act as Harry's moral center.
6. Chewbacca and Hagrid
CHEWBACCA: Extremely large and hairy co-pilot.
HAGRID: Extremely large and hairy gamekeeper.
[/spoiler]
And now I would love to hear our resident Potter fans thoughts on this, as well as Star Wars fans.
-Cello
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Samsara
The Reel Staff
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Posted: Jun 12th, 2005 at 03:07 pm
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True, there are a lot of similarities. However, there are also a lot of similarities between Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. And then, there are a lot of similarities between Lord of the Rings and MacBeth. Nothing is original, these days.
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Posted: Jun 13th, 2005 at 09:21 am
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Star Wars focus's more on mythological elements. Where it tells the story of a Hero(Luke) who faces trials and deals with Orcales(Obi Wan). Seeks an audience with teh wise elder(Yoda) and so much more.
Star Wars was a story GL(Geaorge Lucas had in mind for some time but never gave it that much thought as he origically wanted to be a photographer. Once he tried movies he was fasicinated with many short serials which aired in his day and was truly inspired by mythology and the tale of the Hero.
Once he read The Hero with a Thousand Faces(In college) by Joseph Campbell(Good book, I have it) this pushed him to take his small idea of Star Wars(Then called The Adventures of Luke Starkiller) and expand it.
And because of mythology he created the films which have impacted filmaking and has impacted everyones life in one way or another. Star Wars created the blockbuster in films and it has done soooo much more.
-Cello
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Posted: Jun 14th, 2005 at 12:42 am
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heres what i think.....they both suck muahahaha
BB
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She was a True Patriot
 
created by Cello
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The Reel Staff
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Posted: Jun 16th, 2005 at 01:47 am
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^ Thats great Big Boss 
- This is taking me too long. So i will write it on my comp then post it. When i have time. - 
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Posted: Jun 17th, 2005 at 01:37 pm
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Sorry for not replying earlier. I had so much research to do on this topic and I thank you guys for bringing it up for discussion. It's a pretty long post. Consider yourself warned.
Quote:
Once he read The Hero with a Thousand Faces(In college) by Joseph Campbell(Good book, I have it) this pushed him to take his small idea of Star Wars(Then called The Adventures of Luke Starkiller) and expand it.
You have the book, alright. But have you read it?
For those who haven’t read that book, I’ll try pointing out the striking similarities between all our heroes and the worlds they belong to based on Campbell's "monomyth" theory. I don’t know if I have to use spoiler tags for this but let’s be on the safer side
[spoiler]Monomyth Theory:
the monomyth theory says that the simplest form of a hero's story is:
The hero is introduced in his ordinary world, where he receives the call to adventure. He is reluctant at first but is encouraged by the wise old man or woman to cross the first threshold, where he encounters tests and helpers. He reaches the innermost cave, where he endures the supreme ordeal. He seizes the sword or the treasure and is pursued on the road back to his world. He is resurrected and transformed by his experience. He returns to his ordinary world with a treasure, boon, or elixir to benefit his world.
LotR:
Applying the monomyth to Frodo Baggins of the Lord of the Rings series:
Frodo is introduced in Shire where nothing would happen out of the ordinary. He inherits the Ring from Bilbo (receives the Call). Gandalf the Grey guides him to the Elves and the Fellowship helps him. He reaches Mordor and experiences numerous difficulties but succeeds in defeating Sauron as well. He is scarred by the experience (the piece of sword which is still stuck in his shoulders) and he returns to Shire. End of story.
SW:
Applying the monomyth to Luke Skywalker of the Star Wars series:
Luke leads a boring life as a farm boy. He is reluctant to leave his Uncle’s farm to pursue his dreams of joining the Imperial forces. Due to princess Leia’s to Obi-Wan Kenobi, who requests him to join the quest, the Call is made. He is trained by Obi-Wan and receives help from many sources including Princess Leia and Han Solo. He makes Darth Vader realise his mistake. Serves the society henceforth.
Cinderella
Applying the monomyth to Cinderella:
Yet again, Cinderella lives in the dull world where all she does is chores for he evil step mother and sisters (trio). She gets invitation for the Ball. Trio force her to stay. Fairy godmother helps her. Meets the prince and falls in love with him and leaves behind a slipper. She undergoes supreme ordeal when she is not able to tell the prince that she is the one at the Ball without the Trio knowing. Blah blah blah. She marries him and rules the country happily ever after.
HP:
Applying the monomyth to Harry Potter:
Harry with Dursleys – boring life. Receives letter from Hogwarts. Dumbledore guides him through many obstacles. Faces many difficulties. We don’t know what happens next. Voldemort will ultimately vanquished by Harry, that’s one thing for sure.[/spoiler]
You could apply this theory for any hero of any saga. They will fit perfectly.
Does that mean that the authors have no creativity? And there is no originality and uniqueness between the stories?
I guess you are absolutely wrong there. The author has to think of an entirely new plot line and characters to convincing and skillfully disguise The Hero. This is very similar to how most of us have the same number of arms, legs, eyes, nose, etc., or event the same hair colour and yet be so different for one and other. So, stop posting stuff like “GL steals ideas from Eragon” or “Tolkien copied Eliot's poems”. Please 
I believe that all stories have hidden messages in them. They are basically moral values which teach the importance of friendship, the power of knowledge, respect for elders, etc. You can’t advice a child saying “Listen to your parents!!” or something similar. You can only tell them stories which have that advice as the main theme and thus they can say “You know what happened to the boy in the story, he listened to his parents and that’s why he became a great person!” In this way, the child indirectly learns something from the story. Coming to the point, that’s why there are striking similarities between Han and Ron, Hermione and Leia, Dumbledore and Kenobi. All of them have a similar role to play in the series and thus they leave the same kind message to the people reading it.
I have learnt something from HP – I will know what to opt for when there is a choice between what is good and what is easy.
These are just my opinions. You are free to post yours on this as well.
And thank you for reading through such a long post. I’m obliged
mg
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Samsara
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Posted: Jun 17th, 2005 at 08:07 pm
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Quote:
You mentioned "skillfully disguising the hero". Sometimes, there are blatant copies of characters from other books that aren't even the hero.
Who do you think the hero should listen to and have that person a mentor - a three year old, immature child, a gossipy neighbour, or an old (and thus wise) wo/man? Thats why we have Dumbledore, Gandalf and Kenobi to guide the heroes. I'll elaborate on it if you still don't get it after reading krissi's post (which will be posted shortly).
Quote:
From what I interpretetds from LoTR, there doesn't really seem to be a guiding message for the readers. He worte it for his own enjoyment, seemingly. Also, it seems more to do with Tolkien's own experiances during World War 1, than anything else.
you mean to say it doesnt tell us to stay focused and complete our tasks irrespective of the hardships we face? and you cant spot the old proverb "united we stand, divided they fall" concept in the whole fellowship thing? the whole book is full of message! dont take your friend for granted, a person's greed will introduce him to his downfall. no, you dont spot them? i will be really surprised if you didnt
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Posted: Jun 20th, 2005 at 01:10 am
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First off I have the book and I have read it, mg.
Now the Monomyth theory holds true in every case of every single story ever told.
For the LOTR I havent read the books so I will go on the films. Frodo follows his path of the Hero making him similar to others.
(My points are minor in LOTR as I havent watched the films enough or read the books to comment further)
For Star Wars Luke does the same, as well as Harry Potter.
Now you state Luke is reluctant to leave his home planet, this is not true as all he wanted to do is leave, his uncle would not let him. And Princess Leia does not request him to join the quest she is merely a damsel in distress when he first see's her. Obi Wan never sought out Luke to join the quest, Luke sought him out by way of a droid (R2D2) Obi Wan's plans for Luke were much bigger than joining the war against the Empire.
Now as for Darth Vader he does realize his mistakes only because of Luke who knows there is still good in him and rather than do a service to society he fulfills his destiny which was to bring balance to the force.
But now my reasons, as I stated before of Rowling copying off of Lucas were not challenged in your post.
The theme of every Hero tale is similar in some respects but they can be different (I.E: Odysseus of The Odyssey, Jesus Christ, Sakuntala, Sundiata) Each of those titles and characters/people have different approaches to the story of their Hero's but they ultimatley arrive at the predetermined goal (to fulfill their destiny).
Now I do agree with you on this mg Quote:
I believe that all stories have hidden messages in them. They are basically moral values which teach the importance of friendship, the power of knowledge, respect for elders, etc. You can’t advice a child saying “Listen to your parents!!” or something similar. You can only tell them stories which have that advice as the main theme and thus they can say “You know what happened to the boy in the story, he listened to his parents and that’s why he became a great person!” In this way, the child indirectly learns something from the story. Coming to the point, that’s why there are striking similarities between Han and Ron, Hermione and Leia, Dumbledore and Kenobi. All of them have a similar role to play in the series and thus they leave the same kind message to the people reading it
But from the things I listed from that site. And many more things such as the quidditch match in chamber of secrets where Harry and Malfoy were flying through under the stadium that was STRIKINGLY similar to the speeder bike chase scene in Return of the Jedi.
Now in the end the Hero has similar patterns, friends, styles, etc. But Samsara is correct in some being just copied
Rowling used Harry Potter: he doesnt know about his PARENTS and lives with his aunt and uncle.
Lucas had Luke: who lived with his aunt and uncle and didnt know about his PARENTS.
Each of them didnt want to tell the Hero about their PARENTS. That seems like inspiration from Lucas to Rowling.
Han and Ron (heh nice rhyme)
Han FIGHTS with Luke and Leia to SAVE the galaxy.
Ron FIGHTS with Harry and Hermione to SAVE hogwarts/wizards (Two males to one female, the gender thing is a very minor point, but the description about Han and Ron are big)
That seems like inspiration from Lucas to Rowling.
Leia and Hermione
Leia a women of importance, highly INTELLIGENT things would not progress without her.
Hermione too INTELLIGENT the group needs her just as much as the others.
The two females of course will fall in love with the sub-ordinate's RON and HAN and this plus much more make them REALLY REALLY similar.
That seems like inspiration from Lucas to Rowling.
Vader and Voldemort.
GOOD guys turned BAD guys, a pretty reoccuring theme in any story. This gets more focus as these two were the top pupils if not the strongest ones and they turned to the darkside/badside.
And now their enemy is their once beloved teachers OBI WAN and DUMBLEDORE.
(Minor point right here: If in the books Voldermort turns out to be a relative of Harry or as Samsara said there is another Potter then there is no way you can deny inspiration from Lucas)
That seems like inspiration from Lucas to Rowling.
Oracles: Obi Wan and Dumbledore.
Obi Wan one of the most prominant Jedi Knights ever he achieved goals and set standards that no other Jedi could have. Thus placing him as a MASTER on the Jedi counsel.
Dumbledore one of the top wizards in the magic world, set goals as Obi Wan did and pretty much is a MASTER of his house.
That seems like inspiration from Lucas to Rowling.
For Chewbacca and Hagrid the sidekicks or cronies.
At one point or another they are instrumental in the Hero's success.
Chewbacca large and INTIMIDATING, he GUIDES Luke and Obi Wan to Han for help.
--Continued Below--
Edited for Spelling
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Posted: Jun 20th, 2005 at 01:11 am
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--Continued--
Hagrid large and INTIMIDATING, he GUIDES Harry to the train where he ultimatly meets Ron who helps him.
That seems like inspiration from Lucas to Rowling.
Plus I cant forget this which is too funny to leave out:
CHEWBACCA: Extremely large and hairy co-pilot.
HAGRID: Extremely large and hairy gamekeeper.
Anyway these are my points as to why the Potter series seems sooo much like the Star Wars series, even if you exclude the monomyth theory. The characters and and some of the stuff they do (Speeder bike chase / Quidditch match) are too SIMILAR to ignore. I wouldnt say its blatent copying of characters or scene's as I'm trying to be resonable but it is obvious that there is inspiration from Lucas to Rowling.
In closing I say thank you for reading and I urge you to post your thoughts/comments. Take Care all.
Edited for spelling
-Cello
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The Reel Staff
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TK421
Screen Writer  Member is offline A long time ago, in a Galaxy far, far away...
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Posted: Jun 21st, 2005 at 08:11 am
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Quote:
No No No.... Voldemort has NEVER been good. And i can assure you that Voldemort has no living relatives left. J K Rowling has debunked many many rumors that Harry and Voldemort are related. Harrys only living relatives are the Dursleys. Thats why he is with them every summer. As soon as i get over this flu i will finish the post i am planning to put up.
you say this, but in chmaber of secrets we can see he is good as he is a student of hogwarts. and wasnt he the heir of slytherine and didnt want half breeds to be wizards. just because he had those ideals doesnt make him bad he just stood by his belief as salazar slytherin did i think this in turn once made him good as all he did was back up his ideals.
and you say he has no living relatives left, but do you understand the impact of how a situation liek that in star wars affected film story telling? and remember your not rowling if she wants to change things she can and will so its 50/50 right now. just my two cents.
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Samsara
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Posted: Jun 21st, 2005 at 03:35 pm
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Jun 17th, 2005 at 08:07 pm, marauder gal wrote:
Quote:You mentioned "skillfully disguising the hero". Sometimes, there are blatant copies of characters from other books that aren't even the hero. Who do you think the hero should listen to and have that person a mentor - a three year old, immature child, a gossipy neighbour, or an old (and thus wise) wo/man? Thats why we have Dumbledore, Gandalf and Kenobi to guide the heroes. I'll elaborate on it if you still don't get it after reading krissi's post (which will be posted shortly). Aragog is copied from Shelob and Sirius Black is basically a copy of Aragorn. Where are these in the monomyth?
Quote:
Quote:From what I interpretetds from LoTR, there doesn't really seem to be a guiding message for the readers. He worte it for his own enjoyment, seemingly. Also, it seems more to do with Tolkien's own experiances during World War 1, than anything else. you mean to say it doesnt tell us to stay focused and complete our tasks irrespective of the hardships we face? and you cant spot the old proverb "united we stand, divided they fall" concept in the whole fellowship thing? the whole book is full of message! dont take your friend for granted, a person's greed will introduce him to his downfall. no, you dont spot them? i will be really surprised if you didnt Yes, I suppose these things are in there, but it isn't its primary purpose. He didn't think "Yes, let's make a story to guide people". He only did it for his own enjoyment.
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The Reel Staff
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Posted: Jun 21st, 2005 at 06:12 pm
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Jun 21st, 2005 at 08:11 am, TK421 wrote:
Quote:No No No.... Voldemort has NEVER been good. And i can assure you that Voldemort has no living relatives left. J K Rowling has debunked many many rumors that Harry and Voldemort are related. Harrys only living relatives are the Dursleys. Thats why he is with them every summer. As soon as i get over this flu i will finish the post i am planning to put up. you say this, but in chmaber of secrets we can see he is good as he is a student of hogwarts. and wasnt he the heir of slytherine and didnt want half breeds to be wizards. just because he had those ideals doesnt make him bad he just stood by his belief as salazar slytherin did i think this in turn once made him good as all he did was back up his ideals. and you say he has no living relatives left, but do you understand the impact of how a situation liek that in star wars affected film story telling? and remember your not rowling if she wants to change things she can and will so its 50/50 right now. just my two cents.
You obviously misunderstood COS. No Voldemort, known as Tom Riddle back then, opened the Chamber and killed a muggle born Witch then blamed it on Hagrid. You telling me that this act was some kind of good deed? And you guys might seem that Dumbledore and Tom were on good terms then, they were not. Dumbledore never trusted him back then and still doesn't. Thats one thing about the movies they never interpret the books on how it should be.
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Harry Potter and the Halfblood Prince - (Read 2,005 Times)
